Comments on: We Need More Space…and the money to pay for it! http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm Fragmented pieces of information from a cluttered mind. Tue, 13 Dec 2011 03:23:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Dave http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm/comment-page-1#comment-2058 Dave Tue, 13 Dec 2011 03:23:33 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm#comment-2058 Jen, Thanks for your comments. I am sorry I am so slow in reading them. I guess you can't have a discussion if the moderator isn't moderating! If you review the comment I made just prior to yours, you will see that I too am perplexed on how to care for the current congregation. Since I wrote this post in 2007, I have continued my journey. I feel as though I go in circles. I guess that I have come to the realization that the lost, sick and poor exist in our current congregations so in reality, we are using our resources to care for those who are sick. I don't go to <a href="http://www.flatlandchurch.com/" rel="nofollow">Flatland Church</a> anymore but I think they strike the right balance with their two locations. One in the suburbs and one in the poorer, downtown community. It's a great use of resources. Check them out! Thanks for reading the blog! Keep the discussion coming! Dave Jen,
Thanks for your comments. I am sorry I am so slow in reading them. I guess you can’t have a discussion if the moderator isn’t moderating!

If you review the comment I made just prior to yours, you will see that I too am perplexed on how to care for the current congregation. Since I wrote this post in 2007, I have continued my journey. I feel as though I go in circles. I guess that I have come to the realization that the lost, sick and poor exist in our current congregations so in reality, we are using our resources to care for those who are sick. I don’t go to Flatland Church anymore but I think they strike the right balance with their two locations. One in the suburbs and one in the poorer, downtown community. It’s a great use of resources. Check them out! Thanks for reading the blog!

Keep the discussion coming!

Dave

]]> By: Jen http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm/comment-page-1#comment-1904 Jen Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:07:56 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm#comment-1904 Great thoughts. Certainly balance is required. A lot of churches strike the wrong balance at times. One consideration not mentioned is that the church is there for the congregation as well as the poor and sick community. There are members with a lot of needs, some financial, some not. Some may primarily need a safe place to worship and be really introduced to God. It can be easy to see churches as a bunch of Christians getting to gather to help the needy, but in reality we are all a little bit uglier than that. If there is no where for someone who doesn't have a strong commitment to Christ to sit, they will not come. Also, there needs to be some paid church staff, but churches have to be careful about selecting people committed to service. They need to be able to feed their families like anyone else, but they are organizing volunteers to a large extent. Great thoughts. Certainly balance is required. A lot of churches strike the wrong balance at times. One consideration not mentioned is that the church is there for the congregation as well as the poor and sick community. There are members with a lot of needs, some financial, some not. Some may primarily need a safe place to worship and be really introduced to God. It can be easy to see churches as a bunch of Christians getting to gather to help the needy, but in reality we are all a little bit uglier than that. If there is no where for someone who doesn’t have a strong commitment to Christ to sit, they will not come. Also, there needs to be some paid church staff, but churches have to be careful about selecting people committed to service. They need to be able to feed their families like anyone else, but they are organizing volunteers to a large extent.

]]> By: Dave http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm/comment-page-1#comment-1580 Dave Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:02:16 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm#comment-1580 Robert, Thank you for your comment. Yes - I do assume certain things. I live in 21st Century America. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have a need for paid pastors or staff. We wouldn't need to own large buildings. Everyone would live modestly and give the rest of their income to help the needy. That ideal most likely won't happen any time soon. What I was writing about specifically concerned how we do church today. I know there are small congregations that don't have any paid staff. If you have 500 people showing up for a service, how do you manage that. Not all 500 people are at the same stage in their spiritual journey. Some will be looking for meat while others will be looking for strained peas! Beyond a certain point, it becomes a full-time job to manage the different programs. Could it be a volunteer position. I suppose that once in a while, you could find someone that has the skills and the time to do this on a volunteer basis but that isn't the norm. Most of the time, it would require someone doing this as their job. That takes a salary. So, where does that salary come from? If you have 500 people showing up at one place, where do you put them? In Jesus' day (and location) they could all stand outside. Try that in Chicago in February! The way we live today vs. 2000 years ago is so different. Like I said. I don't have the answers. I have wanted to plant a church for years but I don't have the time to work my full time job and Pastor a church. My Dad works 12-15 hour days as a full-time Pastor. How would I do that and work a full-time job? I wish someone had the answer. I do enjoy the discussion though! Keep the comments coming! Robert,
Thank you for your comment. Yes – I do assume certain things. I live in 21st Century America. In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have a need for paid pastors or staff. We wouldn’t need to own large buildings. Everyone would live modestly and give the rest of their income to help the needy. That ideal most likely won’t happen any time soon. What I was writing about specifically concerned how we do church today. I know there are small congregations that don’t have any paid staff. If you have 500 people showing up for a service, how do you manage that. Not all 500 people are at the same stage in their spiritual journey. Some will be looking for meat while others will be looking for strained peas! Beyond a certain point, it becomes a full-time job to manage the different programs. Could it be a volunteer position. I suppose that once in a while, you could find someone that has the skills and the time to do this on a volunteer basis but that isn’t the norm. Most of the time, it would require someone doing this as their job. That takes a salary. So, where does that salary come from? If you have 500 people showing up at one place, where do you put them? In Jesus’ day (and location) they could all stand outside. Try that in Chicago in February! The way we live today vs. 2000 years ago is so different.

Like I said. I don’t have the answers. I have wanted to plant a church for years but I don’t have the time to work my full time job and Pastor a church. My Dad works 12-15 hour days as a full-time Pastor. How would I do that and work a full-time job? I wish someone had the answer. I do enjoy the discussion though! Keep the comments coming!

]]> By: Robert http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm/comment-page-1#comment-1575 Robert Wed, 23 Sep 2009 07:13:10 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm#comment-1575 Hi there, Interesting thoughts, however when buttoning up a shirt if the first button is wrong, then no amount of ajusting will fully correct the problem. Take a look at what is assumed in your post. 1 that there should be a tithe 2 that there is a need for paid pastors 3 that there should be paid staff in the church The examine these issues carefully in the New Testament, (note I said the NT, the church is not in the Old Testament) you may find some interesting answers. what I do like is the honesty of your blog. Warm greetings in the Lord Robert Hi there, Interesting thoughts, however when buttoning up a shirt if the first button is wrong, then no amount of ajusting will fully correct the problem.

Take a look at what is assumed in your post.
1 that there should be a tithe
2 that there is a need for paid pastors
3 that there should be paid staff in the church

The examine these issues carefully in the New Testament, (note I said the NT, the church is not in the Old Testament) you may find some interesting answers.

what I do like is the honesty of your blog.

Warm greetings in the Lord

Robert

]]> By: c phillips http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm/comment-page-1#comment-1261 c phillips Wed, 09 Jan 2008 02:08:24 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/02/18/we-need-more-spaceand-the-money-to-pay-for-it.htm#comment-1261 I was browsing when I came across your post. I must commend you on the refreshing view you have and the attitude you have concerning the poor as opposed to pouring money first into the building. I am reminded of Stephen's statement-"God does not dwell in buildings made with hands." I have personally seen people struggling and losing their homes while churches collected several million a year while expecting a crisis or benevolence fund with it's small amounts to take care people's needs. What we fail to understand is that all of the tithe, all of the giving in 2 Corinthians never went to a building. It all went to meet people's needs. Predominantly, giving in the Bible went to help people, not buildings. We have lost the central focus of what God wants us to give to and that is to help people. As he says in 2 Corinthians-"he that had little had no lack, and he that had much had nothing left over...that there may be equality." Some day pastors will stand before God and answer for why they pressed their people to give to buildings and not those who lack. God cares about people, not buildings. He owns the earth and the fullness thereof. It is he that said to David, "when did I ask you for a house?" I was browsing when I came across your post. I must commend you on the refreshing view you have and the attitude you have concerning the poor as opposed to pouring money first into the building. I am reminded of Stephen’s statement-”God does not dwell in buildings made with hands.” I have personally seen people struggling and losing their homes while churches collected several million a year while expecting a crisis or benevolence fund with it’s small amounts to take care people’s needs. What we fail to understand is that all of the tithe, all of the giving in 2 Corinthians never went to a building. It all went to meet people’s needs. Predominantly, giving in the Bible went to help people, not buildings. We have lost the central focus of what God wants us to give to and that is to help people. As he says in 2 Corinthians-”he that had little had no lack, and he that had much had nothing left over…that there may be equality.” Some day pastors will stand before God and answer for why they pressed their people to give to buildings and not those who lack. God cares about people, not buildings. He owns the earth and the fullness thereof. It is he that said to David, “when did I ask you for a house?”

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