Comments on: Understanding the Emerging Church http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm Fragmented pieces of information from a cluttered mind. Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:39:57 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: The DIP Shtick » Blog Archive » New Man’s Open Letter to Tony Campolo http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm/comment-page-1#comment-1220 The DIP Shtick » Blog Archive » New Man’s Open Letter to Tony Campolo Sat, 06 Oct 2007 03:15:59 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm#comment-1220 [...] are two topics I have discussed in previous posts [Understanding the Emerging Church and Time for a discussion in the church about Gay, Lesbian and Transgendered Issues or God’s [...] [...] are two topics I have discussed in previous posts [Understanding the Emerging Church and Time for a discussion in the church about Gay, Lesbian and Transgendered Issues or God’s [...]

]]> By: Dave http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm/comment-page-1#comment-779 Dave Mon, 12 Mar 2007 02:39:48 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm#comment-779 I truly hope that God, in His graciousness has a plan for all those who didn't/don't get an opportunity to hear the gospel. Since the Bible doesn't speak on this subject - but in fact makes the point many times that Jesus is the ONLY way - I can't project my own feelings or idea of fairness on what I think God must or must not do. There are a lot of stories in the Bible that when I read them I say to myself, "That wasn't fair!" We (all humans) tend to reflect the culture that we are in so we see justice and fairness through those cultural lenses. God see's things clearly - so clearly sometimes that we can't even comprehend why God allows things to happen they way they do. These are just some of the mysteries that we will never understand here on earth. In answer to you statement about the dark ages and the "holy church" killing people , I thought Pastor Bart's <a href="http://www.gracelearningcenter.com/2007/03/11/kingdom-come-part-3-the-citizens-of-the-kingdom.htm" rel="nofollow">message</a> today, spoke to this subject, especially when he talked about Matthew 7:21-22. I hear about people today doing things in the name of Christ that I know are not Christ-like. They are the same type of person Jesus was talking about. The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps" rel="nofollow">Rev. Fred Phelps</a> from Kansas is an example that comes to mind. I was thinking about relativism today. The "absolutist" would say that there is only one truth. A "relativist" says that all truths are relative. The "relativist", by making an absolute statement about truth, proves the "absolutist" correct and himself incorrect! See how tangled relativism is? I truly hope that God, in His graciousness has a plan for all those who didn’t/don’t get an opportunity to hear the gospel. Since the Bible doesn’t speak on this subject – but in fact makes the point many times that Jesus is the ONLY way – I can’t project my own feelings or idea of fairness on what I think God must or must not do. There are a lot of stories in the Bible that when I read them I say to myself, “That wasn’t fair!” We (all humans) tend to reflect the culture that we are in so we see justice and fairness through those cultural lenses. God see’s things clearly – so clearly sometimes that we can’t even comprehend why God allows things to happen they way they do. These are just some of the mysteries that we will never understand here on earth.

In answer to you statement about the dark ages and the “holy church” killing people , I thought Pastor Bart’s message today, spoke to this subject, especially when he talked about Matthew 7:21-22. I hear about people today doing things in the name of Christ that I know are not Christ-like. They are the same type of person Jesus was talking about. The Rev. Fred Phelps from Kansas is an example that comes to mind.

I was thinking about relativism today. The “absolutist” would say that there is only one truth. A “relativist” says that all truths are relative. The “relativist”, by making an absolute statement about truth, proves the “absolutist” correct and himself incorrect!

See how tangled relativism is?

]]> By: Jeff Peters http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm/comment-page-1#comment-778 Jeff Peters Sun, 11 Mar 2007 23:56:16 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm#comment-778 Thanks for the understanding David, I feel the same way about discussion and the search for truth being part of the journey. I just know some people don't feel that way and get offended by my sometimes tactless approach. As I was typing my response before, the verse you quoted (John 14:6) actually came to my mind. I know that this is truth. I truly do and I take it upon myself as a Christian to tell as many people as I can about it. When I am not being a disobediant coward! However, I still tend to lean towards the fact that God does have an plan for people who do not get the chance to hear the true Gospel while they are on the Earth. I don't know if thats true or what it would look like if it is true. I guess it doesn't really matter when it comes right down to it for you and I whether he has a plan. Like you said it doesn't really matter what we belive as doctrine, as long as we agree on the dogma. I could talk to you forever! I love talking to Christians about God "stuff". Thanks for the understanding David, I feel the same way about discussion and the search for truth being part of the journey. I just know some people don’t feel that way and get offended by my sometimes tactless approach. As I was typing my response before, the verse you quoted (John 14:6) actually came to my mind. I know that this is truth. I truly do and I take it upon myself as a Christian to tell as many people as I can about it. When I am not being a disobediant coward! However, I still tend to lean towards the fact that God does have an plan for people who do not get the chance to hear the true Gospel while they are on the Earth. I don’t know if thats true or what it would look like if it is true. I guess it doesn’t really matter when it comes right down to it for you and I whether he has a plan. Like you said it doesn’t really matter what we belive as doctrine, as long as we agree on the dogma. I could talk to you forever! I love talking to Christians about God “stuff”.

]]> By: Dave http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm/comment-page-1#comment-777 Dave Sun, 11 Mar 2007 04:40:07 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm#comment-777 Jeff, You are not the one I was referring to - I don't think I have ever talked to you about this before. My post mentioned that I believe that there is only one way to salvation - through Jesus Christ. That isn't my original idea. In John 14:6, Jesus answered his disciples question, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Jesus was telling his disciples that ONLY He is the path to salvation and that He is God. I didn't make that up. I know it doesn't seem fair for people to die without us knowing whether or not they knew Christ. I don't have an answer for that. I don't even have an answer for you about what all happened in the Dark Ages except that I do know that God knows. What was done in the name of the church was done by sinners like you and me. I don't presume to judge anyone - In fact it is out of my love for people that I believe it is my purpose in life to tell anyone who comes within earshot of me that Jesus is the way to eternal life. This blog is one way I reach people all over the world. Most of the time I never know who reads this but I do know that it is read by people all over the <a href="http://www.gvisit.com/plain.php?sid=58bbb0d30ff2d7a93712cf8ee9bb60ac" rel="nofollow">world</a>. When I said that someone who professed to be a Christian told me that he believed that there were alternate truths that led to salvation, I used that term because even though they claim to be a Christian, they believe that there are alternate paths to salvation. That is a pluralistic viewpoint not a Christian viewpoint. It is a viewpoint that equates all world religions as valid belief systems. If I asked 100 people what my father looked like, I would get many different answers. What is important? How tall he is, what color his eyes are? What is really important in describing my dad? They can't all be right, can they? All of the various world religions can't be true for the same reason. The truth is that all of these world religions all contradict each other. And if they contradict each other, then they all can't be right. On the subject of God, Buddhists are agnostic, Hindus have millions of Gods, Islam believes that Jesus is NOT God and Christianity centers on Jesus and his divinity. They all can't be true. So it all comes down to which truth to choose? A Christian is a follower of Jesus' teaching. The center of Christianity is the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus. The recognition that we are completely unworthy of entering into a relationship with God on our own. That God, who is just, demands perfection and nothing that we can ever do will achieve that perfection. But God is also gracious. He desires a relationship with us so much that he sent his son Jesus, who was and is perfect, to be sacrificed for our sins so that by believing in Him and his death and resurrection, we can join him in heaven. Again, this is not something I made up. This is what being a Christian is all about. Out of all the leaders of the world, only Jesus claimed that he was God himself and then backed it up with miracles and conquering death. If we are to believe this is true then our quest for truth ends there. As I said earlier, I don't have all of the answers. One of my greatest dreams is to wake up in heaven one day and know that I can go talk to Jesus personally and ask him all of these questions myself. Until then, I will tell as many people as I can that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the father except through Him. Don't worry about us talking in church. I love the discussion! Isn't this just part of the journey? Jeff,

You are not the one I was referring to – I don’t think I have ever talked to you about this before.

My post mentioned that I believe that there is only one way to salvation – through Jesus Christ. That isn’t my original idea. In John 14:6, Jesus answered his disciples question, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” Jesus was telling his disciples that ONLY He is the path to salvation and that He is God. I didn’t make that up.

I know it doesn’t seem fair for people to die without us knowing whether or not they knew Christ. I don’t have an answer for that. I don’t even have an answer for you about what all happened in the Dark Ages except that I do know that God knows. What was done in the name of the church was done by sinners like you and me. I don’t presume to judge anyone – In fact it is out of my love for people that I believe it is my purpose in life to tell anyone who comes within earshot of me that Jesus is the way to eternal life. This blog is one way I reach people all over the world. Most of the time I never know who reads this but I do know that it is read by people all over the world.

When I said that someone who professed to be a Christian told me that he believed that there were alternate truths that led to salvation, I used that term because even though they claim to be a Christian, they believe that there are alternate paths to salvation. That is a pluralistic viewpoint not a Christian viewpoint. It is a viewpoint that equates all world religions as valid belief systems.

If I asked 100 people what my father looked like, I would get many different answers. What is important? How tall he is, what color his eyes are? What is really important in describing my dad? They can’t all be right, can they? All of the various world religions can’t be true for the same reason. The truth is that all of these world religions all contradict each other. And if they contradict each other, then they all can’t be right. On the subject of God, Buddhists are agnostic, Hindus have millions of Gods, Islam believes that Jesus is NOT God and Christianity centers on Jesus and his divinity. They all can’t be true. So it all comes down to which truth to choose?

A Christian is a follower of Jesus’ teaching. The center of Christianity is the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus. The recognition that we are completely unworthy of entering into a relationship with God on our own. That God, who is just, demands perfection and nothing that we can ever do will achieve that perfection. But God is also gracious. He desires a relationship with us so much that he sent his son Jesus, who was and is perfect, to be sacrificed for our sins so that by believing in Him and his death and resurrection, we can join him in heaven. Again, this is not something I made up. This is what being a Christian is all about. Out of all the leaders of the world, only Jesus claimed that he was God himself and then backed it up with miracles and conquering death. If we are to believe this is true then our quest for truth ends there.

As I said earlier, I don’t have all of the answers. One of my greatest dreams is to wake up in heaven one day and know that I can go talk to Jesus personally and ask him all of these questions myself. Until then, I will tell as many people as I can that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the father except through Him.

Don’t worry about us talking in church. I love the discussion! Isn’t this just part of the journey?

]]> By: Jeff Peters http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm/comment-page-1#comment-776 Jeff Peters Sat, 10 Mar 2007 20:29:15 +0000 http://www.dipshtick.com/2007/03/01/understanding-the-emerging-church.htm#comment-776 Hi Dave, I was just reading your Blog and I don't know if I had ever had the conversation with you about this but I may have been the one that made that comment about not judging other faiths. I may not have ever said this to you either I don't know, I do know that I believe that it is not up to us to judge other people on any basis! To say that you know for sure that they won't get into heaven is borderline blasphemy. My biggest reason fo believing this is the dark ages. These people had everything they had, including their lives, taken from them by the "Holy Church". Who, in there right mind would believe the vomit that those devils were spewing out of their mouths. And remember, ninety percent of these people couldn't read the bible for themselves, so they had to rely on the church as an example. I know all that God says about how to get to Heaven, but I cannot be so blind as to think that our wonderful Lord would allow these poeple to be damned to the fiery pit for not excepting THAT gospel. He has to have a plan for those people too. I don't know what it is and He may very well damn them to hell, but to say for certain is out of my ability to say. You know I wouldn't have even written anything about this without the comment that you wrote, "I was even told once by someone professing to be a Christian...", somehow incinuating that if someone believes this, they must not be a TRUE christian. I just felt that was a little uncalled for. Sorry if it seemed that I got a little heated. I love you in the "O.K. to love each other Christian way", and not the "not cool to love another guy way". I hope that my lack of tact doesn't make it weird to talk in church. Hi Dave,
I was just reading your Blog and I don’t know if I had ever had the conversation with you about this but I may have been the one that made that comment about not judging other faiths. I may not have ever said this to you either I don’t know, I do know that I believe that it is not up to us to judge other people on any basis! To say that you know for sure that they won’t get into heaven is borderline blasphemy. My biggest reason fo believing this is the dark ages. These people had everything they had, including their lives, taken from them by the “Holy Church”. Who, in there right mind would believe the vomit that those devils were spewing out of their mouths. And remember, ninety percent of these people couldn’t read the bible for themselves, so they had to rely on the church as an example. I know all that God says about how to get to Heaven, but I cannot be so blind as to think that our wonderful Lord would allow these poeple to be damned to the fiery pit for not excepting THAT gospel. He has to have a plan for those people too. I don’t know what it is and He may very well damn them to hell, but to say for certain is out of my ability to say. You know I wouldn’t have even written anything about this without the comment that you wrote, “I was even told once by someone professing to be a Christian…”, somehow incinuating that if someone believes this, they must not be a TRUE christian. I just felt that was a little uncalled for. Sorry if it seemed that I got a little heated. I love you in the “O.K. to love each other Christian way”, and not the “not cool to love another guy way”. I hope that my lack of tact doesn’t make it weird to talk in church.

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